On May 24th, in the second season of China Together, the host Yang Lan and Professor Liu Yadong, Dean of School of Journalism and Communication, Nankai University reviewed the development of science and technology in China, and discussed China's scientific exploration, scientific innovation and the promotion of scientific spirit.
Liu Yadong said, "Chip is not a product or an industry, but an industrial chain. It is impossible for any country to establish a completely localized industrial chain, which must be the product of international cooperation. At present, the most essential reason for the problems in China's scientific and technological circles is the lack of scientific spirit, and critical questioning is the essence and core of scientific spirit.
Interviewee: Dean of School of Journalism and Communication, Nankai University, Liu Yadong, and former editor-in-chief of Science and Technology Daily.
Yang Lan is a senior media person.
Editor: Mi Liping Source: Zhenghe Island
Yang Lan: Hello, I'm Yang Lan. This program is honored to invite Professor Liu Yadong, Dean of School of Journalism and Communication of Nankai University, to sort out the development of science and technology in China with Liu Jiaoshou, and to explore the sum of scientific exploration, scientific innovation and scientific spirit in China. Hello, Dean Liu.
Liu Yadong: Hello.
Yang Lan: Thank you for coming to our program. In recent years, ordinary people can see that our country has made many achievements in scientific research and technological innovation, such as manned space flight, Mars exploration and deep-sea research.
Liu Yadong: Over the past 40 years of reform and opening up, especially since the 18th National Congress of the Communist Party of China, China has made great achievements in many high-tech fields. The World Intellectual Property Organization released the global innovation index report 202 1, and China ranked 12 in the world, up two places from 2020. In fact, starting from 20 13, China has been steadily rising in this ranking for nine consecutive years, and the momentum is still very good.
Yang Lan: This also indicates a stamina, a stamina for development.
Liu Yadong: Yes, it shows that the development momentum of science and technology in our country is still very good.
Liu Yadong: As we all know, the semiconductor industry has a long chain, including chip design, chip manufacturing, chip packaging and testing. So the U.S. blockade against us includes Chip4. In fact, it is mainly aimed at the manufacturing process of semiconductor chips. I think it is to contain and suppress China in this process.
Yang Lan: The chip is indeed known as "the oil of the new era". Of course, it is not energy, but it is used everywhere, such as new energy vehicles and mobile phones. In the future, everything will be connected. In fact, everything may have a chip.
Liu Yadong: Without oil or its derivatives, our society can't function at all, especially chips. Our country imported 565.438 billion tons of crude oil last year, with an import volume of about 250 billion US dollars. As far as semiconductor chips are concerned, from 20 18, our import amount exceeded 300 billion US dollars, and then it soared all the way. By 202 1, China's imported chips reached $440 billion.
Yang Lan: It has surpassed oil.
Liu Yadong: There are too many chips, and the importance of chips is self-evident. This is why the United States concentrates its efforts on containing and suppressing China in the field of chips.
But Chip4, I personally think, is still full of great uncertainty.
First of all, in the United States, many American companies have deep cooperation with China. For example, Intel Corporation, which has been rooted in China for nearly 40 years, has a good cooperative relationship with China. Companies like this will definitely have a huge rebound if they don't let others make money, so there is also great resistance to implementing this policy in the United States.
Secondly, countries like South Korea, Japan and Taiwan Province Province of China have no obligation to 100% obey the United States. For example, South Korea's Samsung Company built a large memory factory in Xi 'an, which is the only flash memory factory built by Samsung overseas. It is said that it accounts for more than half of Samsung's memory output value, so you said that Samsung will not do this business because it listens to American orders. I don't think so.
Yang Lan: It is also quite difficult for them to really implement it.
Liu Yadong: Actually, compared with other regions, the United States is also its shortcoming in semiconductor manufacturing. As far as the manufacture of semiconductor chips is concerned, the share of the United States in the global market is only 12%, so now the Biden administration has also taken various measures to try to improve the shortage of semiconductor manufacturing in the United States.
Yang Lan: I remember you once said that "it is difficult to make a chip, but it is difficult to make an atomic bomb". How do you explain this? Explain to the people in common language?
Liu Yadong: Well, technically speaking, the atomic bomb is certainly difficult, but it is actually an economic problem. It takes about 200 tons of uranium to extract one kilogram of weapon-grade enriched uranium, about 15 kilograms of enriched uranium and 3000 tons of natural uranium to make an ordinary atomic bomb. Do you have so many uranium mines? Even if there is, it needs a lot of manpower, material resources and financial resources to purify it.
Yang Lan: That sounds difficult enough. Why is the chip more difficult?
Liu Yadong: Chips are completely different from making atomic bombs. Chip is not a product, not an industry, but an industrial chain. This small chip may be as small as a fingernail, but it is the epitome of industrial civilization of all mankind so far, involving machinery, electronics, metallurgy, chemical industry, materials and other industries.
Take mask aligner, the equipment used in the manufacture of semiconductor chips, as an example. ASML, the Netherlands, is the best manufacturer in mask aligner and the only one in the world that makes ultraviolet lithography machines. Although the extreme ultraviolet lithography machine is made in the Netherlands, more than 2,000 manufacturers provide parts for it. These more than 2,000 manufacturers are top enterprises from developed countries all over the world, and we call them "invisible champions" or industry leaders.
So you can see that it is impossible for any country to establish a completely localized industrial chain, which must be the product of international cooperation.
Yang Lan: So in fact, you also mentioned not to use the national system to realize the development of chips.
Liu Yadong: The national system is the institutional embodiment of our socialism concentrating on doing great things in China. It is one of our advantages, not to say that we can't use the national system, but that the previous national system was not suitable for developing semiconductor chips.
Yang Lan: Why?
Liu Yadong: What the national system can do is when the roads are clear, such as athletes winning gold medals. Some sports are obviously unpopular in China, but under the national system, they can quickly improve their performance and even win gold medals. You can win a gold medal or build an atomic bomb. Why? The atomic bomb is not a commodity, and there is no problem of industrialization and cost.
But the chip is different. Chips are commodities. For example, people make $65,438+00 chips. If you make them, don't say $65,438+000, that's $20. It's useless to make it, because if the market doesn't accept it, it's rubbish and useless. So I said that the previous national system could not be used to develop chips.
The state system should keep up with the development of the situation, and we should establish a new state system. The characteristics of the new national system must play a role in the socialist market economy, so that the market plays a decisive role in the allocation of resources and the government can play a better role.
Yang Lan: It is not a problem that can be solved by mobilizing all resources at once, regardless of the cost. In fact, it is to establish a mechanism.
Liu Yadong: That's right.
Yang Lan: When it comes to technology, we often get confused. For example, we will talk about high technology and technological innovation, but from the perspective of studying the history of science, science and technology cannot be confused. Can you sort it out for everyone in this respect?
Liu Yadong: Yes, because science and technology are two completely different concepts. Of course, there is a connection between them. Science helps us to know and discover nature, and technology helps us to conquer and transform nature.
China people's combination of science and technology has caused many misunderstandings. For example, we say that technological innovation is actually wrong. Why? Because technology can innovate and science can't.
Because the research object of science is the mystery of nature and the essence of the universe, its truth and laws exist objectively, so this thing must be separated. Technological innovation is wrong. It can be said that technological innovation can only be found.
Yang Lan: Yes, sometimes the language itself will bring us some confusion.
Liu Yadong: I'm not talking like a book. When these things are just an expression, it doesn't matter if everyone knows them clearly.
But the problem is that when you make these wrong statements, it actually reflects that you don't understand the different development laws of science and technology.
Yang Lan: In the top list of global innovation institutions 100 in 2022, we found that 35 companies were from Japan, 18 companies were from the United States, and only 5 companies from Chinese mainland were selected. What kind of gap and development space does this tell us? What kind of harmonious but different relationship do you think is between open cooperation and independent innovation?
Liu Yadong: Actually, this still reflects that our country's innovation ability is relatively weak. We say that science has no national boundaries, and technology has always had national boundaries. Although our international environment has become more sinister than before, Sino-US relations have not shown signs of warming up.
However, globalization will eventually develop in depth, so it is impossible for any country to be the first in the world in every technology, and it is impossible for any country to solve all innovation problems entirely by its own strength.
Therefore, I think the correct way is to correctly sort out which products and technologies we have jointly developed, which can be introduced, digested, absorbed and innovated, which we introduce today and realize domestic substitution tomorrow, and which we have to tackle key problems ourselves and finally make breakthroughs.
In fact, the most important thing is to form an effective balance and exchange capacity, rather than unilaterally relying on other countries for technology. So I say that China's road to independent innovation is a road that pays equal attention to both independence and cooperation.
Yang Lan: On 20 18, Science and Technology Daily published a column-"Core Technologies to Be Overcomed", which was the first time that domestic media sorted out some technical problems to be overcome in great detail. Why did you design such a topic and column at that time? Can you tell me your thoughts?
Liu Yadong: Over the past 40 years of reform and opening-up, especially in recent years, our country's economic development is still very fast, and the total GDP growth is also very fast. By 202 1 year, China's total GDP will be 1 14 trillion RMB, or 17.7 trillion US dollars, and the US GDP will reach 23.04 trillion US dollars. In this case, we can see that China's GDP is close to 3/4 of that of the United States. In this case, the whole country is full of pride.
But inevitably, some people are also complicated and arrogant. 20 18, in response to some public opinions and irrational ideas, we opened this column called "Core Technology to Be Overcomed". We should not only fully affirm our achievements, but also clearly recognize the gaps and deficiencies.
The competition between national powers is often reflected in a kind of technical discourse power and the ability to control the industrial chain, which are very important.
Yang Lan: Don't be blind and arrogant.
Liu Yadong: Yes, only by recognizing the gap can you make up for it.
Yang Lan: You wrote an article last year, which was widely circulated in many enterprises, including Huawei. Mr. Ren Zheng Fei also recommended it, which is the question you asked. "Besides the core technology, what are we missing?" What else is missing?
Liu Yadong: From June 2065438 to June 2008, I made a speech that was widely circulated on the Internet. In that speech, I made three points. In fact, I think there are more than these three points. At that time, I talked about these three points: lack of scientific arms, lack of craftsmanship and lack of perseverance.
Last September, I saw some social phenomena and practices of some enterprises, and felt it necessary to discuss this issue further. So I wrote an article saying that it has been three years since I put forward the problem of "sticking my neck", but many people still don't understand what we lack except those core technologies.
In the past, when the external environment was good, we often neglected to develop our own core technology. Then when the external environment is not good, such as the decline of Sino-US relations, there is another tendency at this time, that is, we have various advantages, without which we can do everything by ourselves.
For example, to make chips, in 2020, more than 3000 companies in China flocked to make chips. That's not how the chip works. It's a long and lonely long-distance running, and you can't make quick money. The mentality of many China enterprises is not suitable for making chips. Including the local government approved a lot, gave a lot of policies, gave land and money, and as a result, there was a wave of bankruptcy soon, and no one was responsible for it. So I feel anxious. I think in this case, I say we should further elaborate on this issue.
Yang Lan: You mentioned the craftsman spirit just now, which reminds me that we have many so-called traditional production fields, such as traditional crafts such as wine making, and now we also attach great importance to the application of high technology.
Liu Yadong: Yes, when people improve their technology, they often think of high-rise buildings, machines and equipment. In fact, the scientific and technological content of agriculture is extremely high. For example, seeds, many of the seeds we use now are foreign, and foreign seeds are measured by grains, which is very expensive. Although foreign seeds are so expensive, farmers are still willing to buy foreign seeds. Why? Its output is high, which is the choice of the market.
Yang Lan: Cost performance and market configuration.
Liu Yadong: Yes, if these things are still far away from our lives, let me give you another example: seeing a doctor. Everyone has been to the top three hospitals. At present, 95% of the medical and testing equipment used in all the top three hospitals in China are imported, which is easy to understand and close to your life.
When I say this, I don't mean to criticize our country, nor do I mean to hit everyone. That is, we should not only see our own achievements clearly, but also know our own gaps and shortcomings, and we should not be blindly optimistic.
Yang Lan: But at the same time, we really need to see the other side of this coin, that is, we have made great progress and development in recent years.
Liu Yadong: Yes, of course.
Yang Lan: What fields are you particularly interested in?
The other is our high-speed rail technology. Although our technology is learned from Siemens and Japan, we are a rising star. It can be said that high-speed rail technology is doing well now.
In addition, for example, supercomputing, we have won the world championship for 10 years in a row. I have also seen the supercomputer "Shenwei Light of Taihu Lake", which is quite good, and won the Gordon Bell Award, the highest award in the field of supercomputing application twice. These are all good achievements made by our country.
Yang Lan: At the World Science and Technology Innovation Forum on 20 18, you also said that at 19 19, people said that China lacked scientific spirit. But by 20 19, we still lack scientific spirit. How do we understand such an observation?
In addition, what do you think is the relationship between scientific spirit and science and technology?
Liu Yadong: I think so. It is science, including scientific spirit. This is an imported product, not our local product. 19 16 ren hongjuan, president of the Chinese science society, wrote an article called "on the scientific spirit", which was the first time that the scientific spirit was mentioned in China literature.
By 1922 Mr. Liang Qichao gave a speech at the seventh annual meeting of the Chinese Science Society. In this speech, he said, "systematic true knowledge is called science, and it can teach people how to acquire systematic true knowledge, which is called scientific spirit."
Scientific spirit is actually a kind of mental state and mode of thinking of human beings, and it is the general name of a kind of belief, value standard and behavior norm formed by human beings in long-term scientific practice. On the one hand, scientists can be constrained to succeed in their own research fields; On the other hand, it can penetrate into the public consciousness.
Although there is a personal understanding of the definition of scientific spirit, some things are recognized by everyone. For example, the content of scientific spirit can be said to be pragmatic, critical and questioning, unremitting exploration, courage to innovate, inclusive and tolerant of failure. , may be part of the scientific spirit.
But I think the most important thing of scientific spirit is to criticize and question. I said that criticism and questioning are the essence and core of the scientific spirit, and it is still very important for China to carry forward the scientific spirit.
Yang Lan: And it's not just a way of thinking or a state of mind that some scientists need. It should be a way of thinking that the whole people and society have.
Yang Lan: In my opinion, the scientific spirit stems from people's curiosity. We are constantly learning about nature, society and ourselves. It is curiosity that drives human beings to constantly discover and pursue truth. I think the most important thing in scientific spirit is the spirit of independent thinking and seeking truth from facts. At the same time, we call on our society to form such an atmosphere, encourage the expression of different views, and tolerate failures and setbacks.
As a media person, you have repeatedly stressed that "you are not only on it, but also in books", and you have never been "stunned", that is to say, you must have a clear view of yourself. So what kind of influence did the scientific spirit you have been advocating have on you in your media career?
Liu Yadong: An important part of the scientific spirit, or an important part of it, is seeking truth from facts, which is what Chen Yun said: "not only being on the top, not just books, but only being practical".
Seeking truth from facts is our party's consistent ideological line. Numerous facts have proved that as long as we adhere to the ideological line of seeking truth from facts, our cause will be successful, and if we deviate from the ideological line of seeking truth from facts, we will encounter setbacks.
Yang Lan: 20 15 Tu Youyou won the Nobel Prize in Physiology and Medicine. At that time, there was a voice on the Internet that she had "three noes" status, no doctoral degree, no study abroad background and no academician title, and then questioned the value of some assessments in the scientific community, such as honor, position, degree and professional title.
At that time, you had a comment-"Don't Say Tu Youyou", which put forward your own analysis and attitude towards such a phenomenon. This review won the third prize in the 26th China Prize for Journalism. But I heard that the awarding process was not very smooth. Can you tell us what happened at that time?
Liu Yadong: When people cry, don't make them too sad. Don't let the public get carried away when they are laughing. I think this is what a responsible media person should do.
After Tu Youyou won the Nobel Prize, there was a one-sided voice on the Internet that night, that is, Tu Youyou completely denied the current scientific research evaluation and reward system in China as the so-called "three noes" and raised many questions, so as the editor-in-chief of Science and Technology Daily at that time, I felt it necessary for me to stand up and write such an article.
However, after submitting the award, some judges may also agree with those opinions on the Internet, saying that the article has two problems, so it was rejected in the first round, but they can lodge a complaint. I knew that once the China Prize for Journalism was rejected, your chances of coming back on appeal were almost zero. But I feel particularly unwilling. I think my idea and practice are right.
Yang Lan: At this time, it is necessary for you to provide another perspective.
Liu Yadong: Yes. I don't think the questions raised by the judges are valid. Although I think the possibility of coming back is very small, I still want to treat the dead horse as a living horse doctor and write down some of my feelings.
Yang Lan: Is this award particularly important to you?
Liu Yadong: It doesn't matter at all, because I personally won the 10 China Prize in Journalism, and it doesn't matter to me if one is more or less.
Yang Lan: Then why are you complaining?
Liu Yadong: In other words, I think I am right, you are wrong, and obviously you are untenable, so I want to make this clear to you. It is such an impulse.
The result is really a comeback. After the comeback, some readers said that this award should not take the third prize, but should take a higher prize. I said this third prize is not a third prize. I said, it's not easy to make a comeback.
In addition, some judges later told me that your complaint is better than the review itself.
So I also thought about how to write a good article. I think it's actually two words. It is easy to write a good article when you want to write, but sometimes it is difficult to write a good article when you don't want to write.
Yang Lan: There are expressions. In fact, this matter is so important to you, perhaps because a media person is relatively objective and calm, and the presentation of another voice helps the public to think as a whole.
Liu Yadong: Yes, we can't go to extremes. You can't say that our previous scientific research system and evaluation system are impeccable. This view is also wrong. But Tu Youyou, as a marginal scientist, after winning the prize, you said that our existing system was useless and totally denied it. I don't think it's objective.
Typesetting | proofreading by Yu Xinfeng | 1 1 rotating editor | Xu Yuebang