Recently, the U.S. government proposed to form a "Chip4" alliance with South Korea, Japan, and Taiwan, which seems to be an attempt to exclude mainland China from the semiconductor supply chain.
On May 24th, in the second season of "Harmony and Culture", host Yang Lan and Professor Liu Yadong, dean of the School of Journalism and Communication at Nankai University, look back at the development of science and technology in China, and explore the issues of scientific exploration, technological innovation, and the promotion of the spirit of science in China.
Liu Yadong said, "Chips are not a product or an industry, but an industrial chain. It is impossible for any country to establish a completely localized industrial chain, which must be the product of international cooperation" "The most essential reason for the current problems in China's science and technology sector is the lack of scientific spirit, and critical questioning is the essence and core of the spirit of science".
Interview: Liu Yadong, Dean of the School of Journalism and Communication at Nankai University, and former editor-in-chief of Science and Technology Daily
Yang Lan, Senior Media Personnel
Editor: Mi Liping Source: Zhenghu Dao
Yang Lan: Hello, everyone, I'm Yang Lan, and I'm honored to invite you all to the show. This program is honored to invite Prof. Liu Yadong, Dean of the School of Journalism and Communication at Nankai University, to sort out the history of China's science and technology development with Prof. Liu, and to explore the ****ing progress of China's scientific exploration, technological innovation, and the promotion of the spirit of science. Hello Dean Liu.
Liu Yadong: Hello.
Yang Lan: Thank you for coming to our program. Over the years, people can see that our country has made many achievements in scientific research and technological innovation, such as manned spaceflight, Mars exploration, deep-sea research and so on.
Liu Yadong: Over the past 40 years of reform and opening up, especially since the 18th Party Congress, China has made great achievements in many high-tech fields. The World Intellectual Property Organization released the Global Innovation Index Report 2021, in which China was ranked 12th in the world, two places ahead of 2020. In fact, China has been steadily rising in this ranking for nine consecutive years since 2013, and the momentum is still very good.
Yang Lan: It also signals a kind of momentum, a momentum of development.
Liu Yadong: Yes, it shows that our country's science and technology development momentum is still very good.
Liu Yadong: We all know that the semiconductor industry, the chain is very long, including chip design, chip manufacturing, chip packaging and testing, and so on. So the U.S. blockade of us including Chip4, in fact, it is still mainly focused on the manufacturing of semiconductor chips, I think it is in this link to China to implement the blocking and suppression.
Yang Lan: Chip is indeed known as the "oil of the new era", of course, it is not energy, but it is indeed used in various places, such as new energy automobile and cell phone, and the future of the Internet of Everything, in fact, all kinds of things may have chip above. The chip will be used in a variety of ways.
Liu Yadong: Without oil or oil derivatives, there is no way for our society to function, and this is especially true for chips. Our country's crude oil imports last year were 510 million tons, and the amount of imports was roughly $250 billion. In the case of semiconductor chips, we started 2018 with imports topping $300 billion, and have since skyrocketed, reaching $440 billion by 2021 for our country's chip imports.
Yang Lan: It's already more than oil.
Liu Yadong: More than too much, the importance of the chip is self-evident, so the U.S. is focused on the chip field, the implementation of China's blockade and suppression.
But Chip4, I personally feel that it is still full of great uncertainty.
First of all, within the United States, a lot of U.S. companies have very deep cooperation with China.
First of all, within the US, many US companies have a very deep cooperation with China.
First of all, within the US, many US companies have a very deep cooperation with China.
Firstly, within the US, many US companies have a very deep cooperation with China.
Secondly, like South Korea, Japan, and Taiwan, that's even less of an obligation to listen to the U.S. 100 percent of the time. For example, like South Korea's Samsung, it built a very large memory plant in Xi'an, that's the only flash memory plant Samsung built overseas, which is said to account for more than half of Samsung's memory output, so I don't think it's going to be like that to have Samsung not wanting to do this business because of listening to U.S. orders.
Yang Lan: really implemented, for them is also quite difficult.
Liu Yadong: In fact, compared to other parts, the United States in terms of semiconductor manufacturing is also its shortcomings. Because in terms of semiconductor chip manufacturing, the United States in the global market share is only 12%, so now the Biden administration is also taking a variety of means to try to enhance the U.S. in the semiconductor manufacturing this piece of the short board.
Yang Lan: I remember you once said, "The difficulty of chip manufacturing is not as bad as the atomic bomb", how do you explain this to the people in layman's terms?
Liu Yadong: Well, technically speaking, the atomic bomb is of course difficult, but in fact it is more of an economic problem. To extract one kilogram of weapons-grade enriched uranium, you need about 200 tons of uranium ore, and to build an ordinary atomic bomb, you need about 15 kilograms of enriched uranium, so you need 3,000 tons of natural uranium ore. Whether or not you have that much uranium ore is another story, and even if you do, it takes a lot of manpower and financial resources to purify it.
YL: So that sounds hard enough, why is the chip harder?
Liu Yadong: Chips are nothing like building an atomic bomb. Chip is not a product or an industry, but an industrial chain. This small chip, may be as small as the fingernail cap so big, but it is the whole of mankind so far industrial civilization of a set, involving many industries, such as machinery, electronics, metallurgy, chemicals, materials and so on.
Take the semiconductor chip manufacturing link used to a device - lithography, do lithography to do the best is the Netherlands ASML, it does the extreme ultraviolet lithography, the world only this one. Although the extreme ultraviolet lithography is made in the Netherlands, but there are more than 2,000 manufacturers to provide it with parts and components, which are more than 2,000 manufacturers from the world's top enterprises in various developed countries, we call them "hidden champions", or called the industry leaders.
So you can see that no country can build a completely localized industrial chain, it must be the product of international cooperation.
Yang Lan: So actually you also mentioned, don't use the national system approach to realize the development of chips.
Liu Yadong: The national system is a kind of system of our Chinese socialism to concentrate on doing big things, and it's one of our strengths, it's not that we can't use the national system, but that the previous national system is not suitable for the development of semiconductor chips.
Yang Lan: Why?
Liu Yadong: The national system can do things in a clearer path, such as athletes to win gold medals, there are some sports, our country is obviously not popular, but in the national system can quickly improve performance, or even win gold medals. It's possible to win gold medals, and it's possible to build atomic bombs, why? The atomic bomb is not a commodity, it does not have the problem of industrialization, nor does it have the problem of cost.
But the chip is not the same, the chip is a commodity, for example, people do chip 10 dollars to do out, you do not say 100 dollars, or 20 dollars, do out of the useless, because the market does not accept, the same as out of a piece of garbage, useless, so I said the past national system can not be used for the development of the chip.
The national system should be constantly evolving with the development of the situation, and we need to establish a new national system. The new national system must be characterized by its role in a socialist market economy, allowing the market to play a decisive role in the allocation of resources, as well as better play the role of the government.
Yang Lan: It is not a matter of mobilizing all the resources at once and investing them regardless of the cost, it is actually a matter of creating a mechanism.
Liu Yadong: That's right.
Yang Lan: Talking about science and technology, we often confuse it, for example, we will say high-tech, technological innovation, but from the point of view of the study of the history of science, science and technology can not be conflated, can not you in this regard to do a little bit of sorting out for everyone?
Liu Yadong: Yes, because science and technology are two completely different concepts, but of course there is a link between them, science helps us to understand and discover the nature, technology helps us to conquer and transform the nature.
The fact that we combine science and technology into a single term in the Chinese language creates a lot of misunderstandings. For example, when we talk about technological innovation, it's actually not true. Because technology can innovate, but science cannot.
Because science is the object of its research is the mystery of nature, the essence of the universe, it is those truths, the law is objective, so this thing must be separated from it, technological innovation is not right, you can say that technological innovation, science can only be found.
Yang Lan: Yes, sometimes the language itself will bring us some confusion.
Liu Yadong : Not that it's biting off more than it can chew, but if people are saying these things in their hearts, it's clear, it's just an expression, it doesn't matter.
But the problem is that you are mentioning that there are these wrong statements, which actually reflects that you do not understand the different laws of development of science and technology.
Yang Lan: In the 2022 list of the world's top 100 innovation organizations, we found that 35 are from Japan, 18 are from the United States, and only five companies from mainland China made the list, so what kind of gaps do we have and what kind of space do we have for development? What do you think is the relationship between open cooperation and independent innovation?
Liu Yadong: In fact, it still reflects our country's innovation ability is relatively weak. We say science has no borders, technology has never had borders. Although we are now the international environment has become more sinister than before, the U.S.-China relationship has not yet seen signs of warming up.
But globalization is ultimately going deeper, so it is impossible for any country to be the world's number one in every technology, and it is impossible for any country to be able to rely entirely on its own power and solve all the innovation challenges.
So I think the right approach is that we should correctly do a sorting out, which products, which technologies we cooperate in the development, which things can be introduced to the digestion, absorption and re-innovation, which we introduce today, and tomorrow to realize the domestic substitution, and which have to be carried out by their own research and development, and ultimately make a breakthrough.
In fact, the most important thing is to form a kind of effective checks and balances and exchange capacity, rather than in the technology to other countries to form a unilateral dependence, So I say that China's independent innovation is a road to emphasize both autonomy, but also emphasize the cooperation of the road to know the easy way to do difficult.
Yang Lan: In 2018, Science and Technology Daily launched a column - "Urgent need to overcome the core technology ", which is also the first time that the domestic media is very detailed to sort out some of the technical difficulties that need to be overcome urgently. Why did you make such a selection and design of the column, can you tell us your thoughts?
Liu Yadong: Over the past 40 years since the reform and opening up, especially in these recent years, our country's economic development is still very fast, and the total amount of GDP growth is also very fast. By 2021, the total GDP of our country will be 114 trillion yuan, or 17.7 trillion U.S. dollars, while the U.S. GDP reached 23.04 trillion U.S. dollars, in which case it can be seen that China's GDP is close to the United States of America's 3/4 of the country, in which case we are all over the country with a sense of pride.
But inevitably, some people have also developed an egomania, and in 2018, in response to some social opinions and irrational thoughts, we opened this column called "urgently need to overcome the core technology". It is important to fully recognize our achievements, but at the same time, we should also be aware of our gaps and shortcomings.
The competition between national strengths is often reflected in a technological discourse and the ability to control the industrial chain, which is important.
Yang Lan: Don't be blindly arrogant.
Liu Yadong: Yes, only by recognizing the gap, you can bridge it.
Yang Lan: You have an article last year in many enterprises, including Huawei internal are widely circulated, Mr. Ren Zhengfei also recommended in particular, that is, you put forward such a question, "In addition to the core technology we still lack what"? What else is missing?
Liu Yadong: In June 2018, I had a speech that was widely circulated online. In that speech I put forward 3 points, in fact, I think the lack of things is far more than these 3 points, at that time I talked about these 3 points: lack of scientific armament, lack of craftsmanship, lack of persistent sentiment.
In September last year, I saw some of the phenomena in society as well as the practices of some enterprises, and felt the need to further discuss this issue, so I wrote an article that I put forward the "neck" problem has been 3 years, but many people still do not understand, in addition to those core technologies we still lack what. The core technology is what we are still missing.
In the past, when the external environment was good, we often neglected to develop our own core technologies. Then in the external environment is not good, such as the relationship between China and the United States went downhill, this time there is another tendency, that is, we have a variety of advantages, so we do not rely on them, what can be done by themselves, what can be done by themselves.
For example, making chips, 2020, the country has more than 13,000 companies flocking to engage in chip, chip is not so engaged, it is a long, lonely long-distance running, can not make quick money. The kind of mentality of many Chinese companies is not suitable for chips. Including the local government approved a lot, gave a lot of policy, gave the land to the money, the results quickly appeared bankruptcy wave, a chicken feather, no one for it to take responsibility. So I feel very anxious and want to be in this situation, I said I have to further elaborate on this issue.
Yang Lan: You also mentioned the spirit of craftsmanship, which makes me think that we have a lot of so-called traditional areas of production, such as brewing such as traditional crafts, and now also very much about the use of high technology.
Liu Yadong: Yes, we raise the technology of these things, often think of high-rise buildings, machinery and equipment, in fact, the scientific content of agriculture, the content of technology is very high. For example, seeds, we now use a lot of seeds, are from abroad, and foreign seeds are measured in grains, very expensive. Although foreign seeds are so expensive, farmers are still willing to buy foreign ones, why? It has a high yield, and this is the choice of the market.
Yang Lan: cost-effective problem, the market configuration.
Liu Yadong: Yes, if these things still feel far away from their own lives, then let me give you another example, see a doctor. Everyone has been to the three hospitals, now all of China's three hospitals used medical and testing equipment, 95% are imported, it is easy to understand, but also from your life is very close.
I'm not saying these things to sing the praises of our country, nor to discourage you, that is, we must not only see the achievements, but also must know their own gaps and shortcomings, can not be blindly optimistic.
Yang Lan: But at the same time we do have to see the other side of the coin, that is, these years we have made great progress and development.
Liu Yadong: Yes, of course.
Yang Lan: What are some of the areas of breakthrough that you're particularly excited about?
The other one is our high-speed rail technology , although our technology was learned from Siemens, Japan and so on, but we are a latecomer, so we can say that high-speed rail technology we are doing very well now.
In addition, such as supercomputing , our supercomputing has been the world champion for 10 consecutive years, "Shenwei - Taihu Lake Light" supercomputing machine I have also gone to see, do is quite good, and there are two times to get the supercomputing application of the field of the highest award -- Gordon Bell Award. --The Gordon Bell Prize, these are all very good achievements of our country.
Yang Lan: In 2018, at the World Forum on Science, Technology and Innovation, you also said that in 1919, people said China lacked the spirit of science. But in 2019, we still lack the spirit of science, how to understand such an observation.
Also what do you think is the relationship between scientific spirit and science and technology, this healthy integration?
Liu Yadong: I think it's true that science, including the spirit of science, is an imported product, not a specialty of ours, and in 1916, Ren Hongjun, the president of the Chinese Society for Science, wrote an article called "The Theory of the Spirit of Science", which was the first time that the spirit of science had ever been mentioned in Chinese literature.
By 1922, at the seventh annual meeting of the Chinese Science Society, Mr. Liang Qichao made a speech, in which he said, "There is a system of true knowledge, called science, and the method that can teach people to seek systematic true knowledge is called the spirit of science".
In fact, the spirit of science is a kind of human mental state and way of thinking, is human in the long-term scientific practice activities, the formation of a kind of *** with the beliefs, value standards and behavioral norms of the general term. On the one hand, it can constrain scientists, so that scientists in his field of research to achieve success; on the other hand, it can penetrate into the public consciousness of the deep.
Although the definition of the spirit of science, individuals have personal understanding, but there are some things are still recognized. For example, we can say that the content of the spirit of science, we can say that the truth-seeking and pragmatic, critical questioning, unremitting exploration, the courage to innovate, inclusive, tolerant of failure, etc., these may be the components of the spirit of science.
But I think the most important thing about the spirit of science is critical questioning. I said critical questioning is the essence and core of the spirit of science, and that promoting the spirit of science is still a very important thing for China.
Yang Lan: And it's not just a way of thinking that some scientists need to have, or a state of mind, it's a way of thinking that should be available to all of us, all of society.
Yang Lan: In my opinion, the spirit of science originates from the curiosity of human beings, and we are constantly trying to understand the natural world, the society, and ourselves, and it is the curiosity that drives human beings to discover the truth and to pursue the truth. In my opinion, the most important thing in the spirit of science is the spirit of independent thinking and seeking truth from facts. At the same time, it calls on our society to develop an atmosphere that encourages the expression of different points of view, and at the same time tolerates failure and frustration.
As a member of the media, you've repeatedly emphasized that you're not a top-ranked person, you're not a bookworm, and you're never a "stickler for the truth," which means that you need to have your own clear ideas. How has the scientific spirit that you have always advocated influenced you in your career as a media person?
Liu Yadong: An important part of the spirit of science, or one of the important content is to seek truth from facts, "not only the top, not only the book, only the truth," which is what Chen Yun said.
Seeking truth from facts is a line of thought that our party has always adhered to. Whether in the past, during the period of armed struggle, or later in the era of peace and construction, numerous facts have proved that, as long as we adhere to the line of thought of seeking truth from facts, our cause will be successful, and when we deviate from the line of thought of seeking truth from facts, we will encounter setbacks.
Yang Lan: Tu Youyou won the Nobel Prize in Physiology and Medicine in 2015, and there was a voice on the Internet that said that she was a "triple null" status, no doctorate, no foreign background, no academician title, and then questioned some of the scientific community.
At that time, you had a commentary - "Don't talk about Tu Youyouyou", which put forward your own analysis and attitude towards such a phenomenon, and this commentary won the third prize of the 26th China News Award. But I heard that the process of judging the award was not very smooth, can you tell us about the situation you encountered at that time.
Liu Yadong: When the public are crying, don't let them be too sad, and when the public are laughing, don't let them be forgetful.
After Tu Youyou won the Nobel Prize, there was a lopsided sound on the Internet that night, which was a complete denial of China's current scientific research evaluation and reward system based on Tu Youyou's so-called "three nos" status, and a lot of questions were raised.
This is the first time that I've written an article about the current system for evaluating and rewarding scientific research in China.
But after the award was submitted, some judges may have agreed with the views expressed on the Internet, saying that the article pointed out two places where there were problems, so it was rejected in the first round, but it was possible to file an appeal. Originally, I knew that once the China News Prize was rejected, the chances for you to appeal were almost zero. However, I feel particularly upset, I think my ideas and practices are right.
Yang Lan: It's necessary for you to provide another perspective at this time.
Liu Yadong: Right. I don't think it's tenable to question the judges, and even though I think the likelihood of a flop is very small, I'm going to beat a dead horse and write out some of my feelings.
Yang Lan: Is this award particularly important to you?
Liu Yadong: It's not important at all, because I've won the China News Prize 10 times, and it doesn't matter to me if I win one more or one less.
Yang Lan: Then why do you have to complain?
Liu Yadong: It is that I think I'm right, you're wrong, and obviously you can't stand up, so I'm going to make this clear to you, that's the impulse.
The result is really flopped, flopped, and readers say, this award should not be third prize, should be awarded a higher prize, I said this third prize is not his third prize, I said flopping has been very difficult.
Also later, I heard some judges tell me that your complaint was better written than the review itself.
So from this I also thought about how to write a good article, I think it's really just two words, want to write, you want to write when it is easy to write a good article, you do not want to write when it is sometimes very difficult to write a good article.
Yang Lan: Some expression. In fact, this matter has such an importance to you, may also lie in a media person's relative objectivity and calm position, and the display of another voice, for the public's overall thinking is helpful.
Liu Yadong: Yes, you can't go to extremes, you can't say that our scientific research system and evaluation system were flawless, and that's not right. But Tu Youyouyou as a more marginal scientists, won the award, you say that our existing system is useless, to the wholesale denial, I think it is not objective.
Typesetting | Yu Xinfeng Reviewed | Yiyi Editor-in-Chief | Xu Yuebang